Curse

clawofcrimson · Dec 12, 2006, 10:54 PM // 22:54

(I guess it should be "seemingly" useless skills) ok... so i just finished capping ALL para elites... (in one night) and then I went to go buy the rest of para skills and I stood there (for 15min) trying to figure out when and how i would use skills like:

-swift javelin-spear mastery - enchants?? what??

-signet of agression- seems like a waist of skill slot ...just throw the dang spear

-awe-leadership- knockdown?? this doesnt seem to synergize with other para skills..(big shock)

-lead the way-leadership-i guess if your paying someone to give you a run somewhere?? or catapult the tank into the fro

godspeed-command-doesnt fall back seem much better?? for 5eng more??

make haste-command- what? another running skill for someone else??

help me- command- what skill that targets allies doesnt cast fast already?

Obviously paras skills depend on allies/secondary proff i just cant see where these would do well....

this thread is for posting how and when and (more importantly)what build these skills would be used in... it would be helpful if you posted the whole build ....including some of these elites that i cant seem to figure (all things considered) where they would be used well.

anthem of guidance-command
stunning strike-spear m.
its just a flesh wound-motiv.

i need help brain stormin here is what i have so far...

P/w

name: Monty python Black knight

skills:

~Its Just a Flesh wound-use this when you lose an arm
~Make haste- shout this when the enemy cuts off your other arm
~help me- shout this when the enemy cuts your left leg off
~awe- stand in awe when you have no limbs
~sig. of agression- use this to gain adrenaline cuz you cant throw a spear
~swift javelin- use when your monk finally starts to cast enchants on you
~godspeed- use this on your allies as they leave your michael jackson butt sitting there
~Watch yourself- at 12 tactics this skill might actually be usefull

attr:
tactics:12
command:8
axe mastery: 3 so you can use that newbie green sword??? (what the heck?)

if ya didnt notice...sarcasm added for effect...seriously though..anyone have a build that includes these?

Govtmorgue · Dec 13, 2006, 01:11 AM // 01:11

It's Just a Flesh Wound can be used in conjunction with Remedy Signet for a fast recharge/removal of Conditions on allies.

An example of when this could be used for the good. It's net gain from it being a shout makes the cost of it 0 essentially. It has a recharge of 1 second, while Remedy Signet has a recharge of 4 seconds. Imagine basically being a RC monk without having to be setup as a Prot, only on a energy free scale.

AB battles (or RA/Ta/HA)...Assassin rushes in, throws a bunch of conditions on your monk thinking it's going to cause panic. You use IJFW, it recharges, use again, rinse repeat, all the while keeping the pressure off your more vulnerable monk.

As for the others, let me let it sink in for a bit before I get back to you ok.

Govtmorgue · Dec 13, 2006, 01:35 AM // 01:35

Ok, I had time to settle and sift it. Here's way's that those skills would become useful.

Swift Javelin - Useful with a enchantment heavy team when wanting to spike. (such as a Prot monk casting Aegis on team, then you spike with that etc. Highly situational and you'd likely have to build the team nearly to the para, but could be useful)

Signet of Aggression - Useful for that "downtime" before a PvP battle begins. Throw some shouts on you, spam this, and the enemy team can be spiked with GTFE! as soon as the match begins, before their adrenalin is up.

Awe - Great for a knockdown heavy team such as bunny thumpers and meteor shower teams. While they might not kill the monk, you daze him while he's on the ground, and cover that up with some other condition

Lead the Way - Spammable Sprint for other's. Good for teams where the monk needs to kite away from others fast.

Godspeed - Again for the enchantment heavy team, such as have a Bonder in FoW, this allows for some quick escapes when needed. Also doesn't have the restriction that if a person hits with an attack it ends.

Make Haste - Even better than Lead the Way due to 33% run speed increase. Perfect for getting a monk the heck out of there, or getting a tank, etc in there without them wasting a skill on Sprint/Charge/etc.

Help Me! - So you're helping your monk out when boom, the aggro shifts to you, your monk can take a breather, not stop as long to heal you, and cast enchants on you way faster than normal.

{Elites}
Anthem of Guidance - Great for when a team is about to co-ordinate a spike. As the move in for the spike, you chant this and boom, enemy has less chance to be able to evade or block the spike.

Stunning Strike - Gotta love daze. Use this with a Anthem of Flame or condition heavy team, some faster adrenalin build, and you can start spamming dazes on people left and right.

It's Just a Flesh Wound - Explained in prior post

Now, I know you asked for builds, and I didn't give any. I gave team build concepts that could or could not work, depending on just how close knit the team is. You asked how they could be made into less "useless" skills and I provided what I hope are some alright answers. Granted almost every one of my answers is a situational based build condition, but for most people/friends/high ranking guilds that coordinate well with each, someone has thought of the skills in the way I described. Hope it helps you out man.

stueyman2099 · Dec 13, 2006, 06:01 AM // 06:01

Alot of skills in thils game are designed with PvP in mind. Thats why alot of thing's you're looking at don't make sense to you. As for using them in PvE, never thought about it, don't really care to either.

clawofcrimson · Dec 13, 2006, 08:21 AM // 08:21

hmm....I guess I need to get into a close knit pvp guild... I am the only one who seems to have interest in pvp in my guild...

well thought out.... but like you said, extremely situational,

would people realy want anthem of guidance to take up the elite spot to coordinate spikes when their are many other good elites?
would you really want swift javelin to take up a spear slot when their are other better ones which dont require enchants?
and what about other team wide condition removers...arent they better than its just a flesh wound.(cautery,SOP)

morgue you have done a good job explaining... but would YOU choose to use these skills over seemingly much better ones...?

if any close knit tight pvp groups out there actually have these skills in their team builds please post... I'd be interested to see some pvp para builds...

Pick Me · Dec 13, 2006, 02:33 PM // 14:33

I will give you some examples for PvE situations too:

swift javelin - if you under the effects of an enchantment (WaMo) - Live Vicariously, Mending, Vigorous Spirit, etc. Heck even Aura of Restoration or Attunements will work. Relies on your 2ndary profession

signet of agression - a nice way to start of with 1 adrenaline point. Isn't there a warrior elite skill that requires only 1 adrenaline point. Some type of defensive skill. I can't remember the name, something like Auspicious Parry or something.

Awe - Hammer skills are good, so are elementalist kd skills (gale, earthquake, etc.)

lead the way - good for making slow party members to keep up, or to get NPCs who are insainely slow to move their butts (Ghost in Abadon's Mouth comes to mind). Also, you are an ally (since it doesn't say target other ally - see Elementalist's spell Windborn Speed).

godspeed - ALL ALLIES! not just 1 ally. Akin to Charge, but needs enchantment and is not an elite (earth attunement).

make haste - command- see lead the way (but target OTHER ally)

help me - sometimes monks can't cast fast enough to save someone.

Even your own spells can be cast faster on yourself (again P/Mo, P/N, P/A, P/E, etc).

Hope this helps a bit.

Spura · Dec 13, 2006, 03:11 PM // 15:11

lol clawofcrimson, some of those skills are prefectly fine especially lead the way, make haste, godspeed...

The ones that suck are help me, It's just a flesh wound

Quote:

Originally Posted by Govtmorgue

It's net gain from it being a shout makes the cost of it 0 essentially.

Too bad you are totally wrong here. IJAFW affects one ally so you only gain 1 energy back(making next cost 4). I've used the shout and it runs the paragon out of energy so quick your head will spin. In fact you are better off putting RC on paragon at least that one heals.

Also your reason fro fear me isn't that good. The ally targeted spells in this game cast too fast to matter really.

Spura · Dec 13, 2006, 03:14 PM // 15:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pick Me

help me - sometimes monks can't cast fast enough to save someone.

Even your own spells can be cast faster on yourself (again P/Mo, P/N, P/A, P/E, etc).

Hope this helps a bit.

I haven't tried it yet but I think spells that don't actually target you, untargeted spells like armor of earth or kinetic armor aren't casting faster. So that leaves only monk and rit spells. And they are all pretty fast.

Edit: just tested it. It only works on targeted, target ally spells. So it doesn't work with most ele buffs or necro buffs.

clawofcrimson · Dec 13, 2006, 03:56 PM // 15:56

ok ok people..

I know these skills can be used... thats not the point... I want to see these skills being used in builds... i mean cmon... if you use these skills i wanna see the build/team build... anyone can read them and say "well you just need an enchantment like live vicariously"

I want to know if there are people who actually find these skills useful in there day to day builds... when I look at these..i think..why would I waist a slot on that...

so please prove me wrong...with a build...that actually works...

Im sure awe would do well in a hammer build...but if you notice there are like 6 builds out there online for paras....? If these skills are really worth their salt (like you say) then where are the builds?? (by the way... i love a-net and I'm inquiring in the best of spirits)

Govtmorgue · Dec 13, 2006, 08:02 PM // 20:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spura

Too bad you are totally wrong here. IJAFW affects one ally so you only gain 1 energy back(making next cost 4). I've used the shout and it runs the paragon out of energy so quick your head will spin. In fact you are better off putting RC on paragon at least that one heals.

Thanks for the correction Spura. I haven't recieved that skill yet and had assumed it was like other shout/chants where if you have 12 (or 16 like I usually run) in Leadership that the net gain is based on allies in earshot of you. However, sorry I don't know where your reference to the skill Fear Me came from, but I'm pretty sure you meant Help Me

. Thanks again for that info on IJaFW.

Build:
P/x
Attributes (Depending on if you want damage, or leadership)
12 (or 16) Spear Mastery
12 (or 16) Leadership

Stunning Strike {Elite - Spear Mastery}
Anthem of Flame
Aggressive Refrain
Natural Temper
Make Your Time
Disrupting Throw
Slayer's Spear
Rez of some type (Signet of Return prefered due to points in Leadership)

Teammates:
ViM Sin Assassin
Crippling Slash Sword Warrior
(Check the PvP page of the guildwiki)
Basically any condition's heavy team, put in a few monks,/ele's and you're good.

Usage:

Start by using Aggressive Refrain, then spam AoF to keep it up. When you are about to enter battle use Make Your Time, then Natural Temper and start attacking, spamming Slayer's Spear for the condition it places (on foes with more health than you) and Disrupting Throw to stop the important enemy spells/skills. Use Stunning Strike when it's ready and just start dazing enemies with conditions on them. With a ViM Sin places conditions left and right, you can Stunning Strike anything he's attacking, same thing with the Crip Sword Warrior. That's up to 3 targets right there that can be dazed (if you all have different targets)

Hollerith · Dec 13, 2006, 08:11 PM // 20:11

-swift javelin - I use with Conjure Flame.

-signet of agression- I can't really figure out what this is used for, but it can keep Adren up in between PvE fights.

-awe - Shock and Awe?

-lead the way - Was a great speed boost in the FPE, not sure if it was nerfed or what. Better than Windborn Speed in some cases.

godspeed - Put enchants on the meleers and watch them zoom around. Fall back ends on anyone that attacks, so it's use is limited to defense.

make haste - Similar to "Lead the Way!"

help me - AoE smite? I can think of a few spells that deal damage through an ally anchor.

Don't really need to be too specific with builds. Don't really need to make an 8-skill bar for an ele in HA or GvG to run flags, right?

Forgot some of yours:
anthem of guidance - For melee spikers to get around Guardian, Distortion, etc.
stunning strike - +Damage and Dazed? Don't need to be creative for how to use this.
its just a flesh wound - I'd imagine being a P/N, strip conditions off an ally, then transfer your deep wound to a foe.

clawofcrimson · Dec 13, 2006, 08:18 PM // 20:18

very nice...exactly what i was askin for morgue thanks...ill go get make your time now

Ive gotta adjust my thinking... paras are there for utility...not 100%dmg and not 100%heal/prot ...but somewhere in between...anyone have any more comments on how skills would synergize with other secondaries? Most of the para builds I see are 100% para

pingu666 · Dec 14, 2006, 07:23 AM // 07:23

whats adrenaline decay rate or whatever?
wiki says..
Losing adrenaline

Losing adrenaline means every adrenal skill in your bar loses its full load of adrenaline. For attack skills with this attribute, the effect comes after the 25 points each skill gains if the attack hits, so all pools will be at 0. You lose all adrenaline after you have not been attacked, do not attack, or otherwise gain adrenaline (eg. Rage of the Ntouka) for 20 seconds, or when you die.

i guess u could use it to keep your skills charged/charging them up. but stopping ever ~10sec is annoyin

clawofcrimson · Dec 14, 2006, 06:21 PM // 18:21

Make your time is a very interesting skill.... I ran a build in RA that looked something like:

Make your time:
Crippling anthem-elite:
go for the eyes:
vicious spear:
barbed spead:
disrupting spear:
apply poison:
sig of rez:

it did pretty well adding conditions...but i got targeted like flies on poop and didnt really have good monking... the great thing about make your time is that you can use it before the battle begins and have full adren. for your shouts...so with a bunch of poison swordsman for instance...shout crip anthem out the gate and start causing quick greif...

...I didnt see the benefit of make your time...until above post so thank you..

any advice/tweaks welcome

also: does anyone know if awe is a ranged or melee skill...? it doesnt say in description..just says "skill"

Spura · Dec 14, 2006, 11:25 PM // 23:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Govtmorgue

Thanks for the correction Spura. I haven't recieved that skill yet and had assumed it was like other shout/chants where if you have 12 (or 16 like I usually run) in Leadership that the net gain is based on allies in earshot of you. However, sorry I don't know where your reference to the skill Fear Me came from, but I'm pretty sure you meant Help Me

. Thanks again for that info on IJaFW.

Leadership energy return is based on the number of affected allies up to a certain amount(1 per 2 points of leadership). So shouts like IJAFW, Find their weakness, Lead The Way, Make Haste, Make Your Time etc, which target 1 ally only give 1 energy back. THat is why I never use IJAFW spam, Find their weakness and rarely use Lead the Way. Just too expensive.

Also watch out, some shouts/chants only affect party members, not allies. Watch yourself for instance only affects party members, so if you are alone in isle of nameless masters, you will gain 1 enegy from it, no matter how many allied NPCs stand in earshot range.

Make your time is inferior to "To the limit" if you have tactics attribute. Any time you engage an enemy group it usually is the same size as yours. Usually it is 4v4 or 6v6 of 8v8. Both shouts can be used to charge adrenaline right at the start of the battle. That is why I will rather choose "To The Limit" which is 5 energy 20 sec recharge over "Make your time" which is 10 energy 30 sec recharge. Both will give me same amount of adrenaline when groups come into contact, provided I have good tactics score.

Also about your build. Natural temper makes a very small contribution, and is not worth a slot IMO.

For instance, at the start of the fight "Make your Time" gives you 4 adrenaline. Then you use natural temper, reducing all other adrenaline skills' pools by 1 strike of adrenaline. Now there is only 3 adren in Stunning strike pool. Now you need 6 attacks to charge it.
If you just use Make your time, you have 4 adrenaline and now need 6 attacks to charge it.

It is the same. That is why Natural Temper sucks like crazy.

Kaida the Heartless · Dec 15, 2006, 04:50 AM // 04:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by clawofcrimson

~Its Just a Flesh wound-use this when you lose an arm
~Make haste- shout this when the enemy cuts off your other arm
~help me- shout this when the enemy cuts your left leg off
~awe- stand in awe when you have no limbs
~sig. of agression- use this to gain adrenaline cuz you cant throw a spear
~swift javelin- use when your monk finally starts to cast enchants on you

LMAO

Several of those skills are used for specific, more gimmicky builds. All skills have a use, except Outoughhssshhg's Cry. :P

remmeh · Dec 15, 2006, 04:57 AM // 04:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaida the Heartless

All skills have a use, except Outoughhssshhg's Cry. :P

Nonsense! What could be better than having an army of level 5 pets turn hostile to your target?

Living Parasite · Dec 15, 2006, 05:31 AM // 05:31

Signet of Aggression can be used to power up before battle so that you have a charged arden skill when you meet the next mob-not having to restart the adrenaline flow (which already is slow for paras)

Thom Bangalter · Dec 15, 2006, 06:04 AM // 06:04

Lead the Way is pretty godly on relic runs in HA due to it's quick recharge and it's (sometimes) significant duration. It's basically windborne, and that skill is good, right? only now it's in shout form--so it's basically charge, but not elite, and conditional, but can have a longer duration, and is targetted. It's still good though, in the right build. I was running it just the other day, won halls with it (though no monks=gg trying to hold for a second round).

Spura · Dec 15, 2006, 09:13 AM // 09:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter

It's basically windborne

Technically windborne is 33% boost, lead the way is 25% boost. But if someone else runs the relic you can use Make Haste which is 33% boost but target other.

A lot of skills that you listed are very useful in certain builds.

About natural temper:
It lasts at best 10 sec.
That is 6 or 7 spear attacks. 33% bonus means you gain about 2 hits of adrenaline. And you burn 1 hit by activating this skill. So that means 1 strike of adrenaline net gain in 10 sec. By using 25% ias like agressive refrain it gets up to 1.66 to 2 net strikes of adrenaline by using this skill.

And all these numbers assume you are attacking all the time(so no chant casting) and that all your attacks hit. So real battlefield net gain from this skill is around 1 strike per 10 sec with IAS. Really not worth the slot.

See the problem is that the skill itself uses adrenaline for activation and thus burns 1 adrenaline off all other skills. If natural temper was 5 energy instead of adrenaline it would be several times better skill.

That is why in your build with make your time and stunning strike, it would be better to use "For Great Justice", because it is energy activated shout that can be activated before "Make your time", so it also affects Make your time.
If you have leadership high enough for make your time to give 5 adren, then FGJ + Make your time puts you at 7.5 adren + 2 attacks and you have stunning strike charged.